companies but international companies that are looking where to invest with the challenges in europe, with china going through a transition, with india's political system, as chair of the india caucus, almost more this functional than ours. we look pretty darn good if we can put a real plan in place. >> what would be the size of the plan? >> i think it gets north of $4 trillion, whether it gets to $6 trillion. this goes back to where you start. two points -- kind of on the opening round questions. it is important to remember that the simpson-bowles plan, which has gained a lot of attention, or the gang of six, which is built off the simpson- bowles, the presumptions that went into those plans assumed that all the top rates would go back up. when you start from that, even though i think simpson-bowles's idea that he would bring the rates down to the high 20's is a bit of a stretch. i do not think we will see that kind of across the board almost zeroing out in some places of tax expenditures that would require. they can show a path towards meaningful tax reform even with the rates at the higher le